Speaker 0 00:00 All right. The workflow show people. We're back. This is Nick gold. This is workflow show episode 34 you may notice that we're calling them something different now that we've been away for almost two years. We used to call them kind of like TV episodes three Oh seven four Oh two now we're just calling it like the number that it is now and we've done 33 so this is workflow show episode 34 I am one of your co-hosts, Nick gold. I am joined in the new Chesapeake systems church podcast studio, which we're pretty excited about by cohost Jason Whetstone. Hello everyone. Hi Jason. Hello Nick gold. Hello. Today we're really excited to get this quote unquote season back up and going. We are going to be a more regular with the workflow show, although that doesn't sound great. Um, but we are going to be doing it more regularly. We've built out an infrastructure, we have a PERMA setup and so we can host awesome guests like the person who's with us today. And I'm going to start off, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I actually think you're one of the smartest and most eloquent people I've met in the industry over here with that 14 and a half years literally. And she's sort of blushing today. We have Emily Hobson Hill from Ooyala, the makers of the flex platform. Hello Emily.
Speaker 1 01:30 Hello Nick. Hello Jason.
Speaker 0 01:31 We are really psyched to have you here today. Again, you're someone we love the perspective of, um, we love the technology that you're involved with. Um, before we go kind of back a little bit, just tell everybody what your current role is with Ooyala and I don't know, like that 22nd elevator pitch kind of thing.
Speaker 1 01:50 Sure. So I'm VP of services with the yellow, which means I cover our professional services arm, technical support and environment management. And um, I've always worked in technology, started out in telecom software as a developer actually. Uh, and then managed development teams, managed the port teams, had a quick stint. Uh, we're in investment banking technology. Um, realized that wasn't for me. And, uh, for almost five years now, I've been working in the media industry
Speaker 0 02:16 More like when you put that little line of code in that skims like one, 1000th of a penny off of every transaction you were like out. Are you all right, we'll get into some of that background. Um, as we get started here and we'll work our way more in towards the present tense and, and the industry at large. Um, we've had you in the shop today, um, because you've been with us over from the UK, you guys are based in London, correct?
Speaker 1 02:41 Uh, so we've got offices all around the world. The, uh, I'm based in London, uh, and a lot of the kind of development team behind the flex media platform, but we've also got offices, quite large offices on the West coast, uh, and uh, Singapore, Sydney and a lot of smaller ones globally as well.
Speaker 0 02:57 Cool. But you, you crossed time zones and we appreciate that. No problem. I crossed time savings a lot. Yeah. Are there like coping mechanisms that you've developed for that?
Speaker 1 03:08 Uh, yeah. I mean, being able to pack a suitcase in 20 minutes, obviously that's a good one. Making sure you always book into hotels that do laundry. Melatonin. Sorry. Of course I have melatonin with me at all times. The best one is the sachets emergency. That's my tip. Better than the pills. Very good. You don't think it's just a placebo? No, no. Yeah. Well not for me anyway. I take sashay 20 minutes later,
Speaker 0 03:32 So, Oh, here's a tip. I like that. It's that, uh, it's, it's the parent coming in telling your time for bad darn off all the lights. See, I get all doped out from melatonin like the next day, the next day
Speaker 1 03:45 Dead. You got to time it, right. You've got to have an early night. If you stay up to like midnight, then you will be,
Speaker 0 03:50 That's what I do. That's what I do, you know? Okay. So we met, I'll give a little background here. In fact, let me, let me set the stage for our listeners back around three years ago now, I think I was at a, um, I think I was at an SVG event and I ran into someone I know who's a, I'm going to leave them anonymous for the purpose of this podcast and I said you so and so, you know that we at Chesapeake appreciate sophisticated middleware management platforms for media workflows and that voice, I probably did it in like pig Latin or something. Okay. I didn't notice it was different from its normal voice. Yeah, that's what I'm going for. By the way, that's exactly what I'm going for. You just set the bar. So low early bar setting as low as possible for the listeners.
Speaker 0 04:42 We had a, we had a very detailed discussion on how we were going to bring the workflow show back. So this is how Nick is going to open up the, this isn't how Nick is going to open, open up the comeback episode with very low bar, low bar people, low bar. So, um, I said this to them and they were familiar with our interest in again, stitching together elaborate solutions that meet a variety of, of, of use cases between production, post distribution, all these things that I guess they like to call the media supply chain these days. Right. And, um, and, and you know, I was like, what else is out there man? We're, we're lost in the wilderness. We can't find things that we feel there should be to solve these problems. And he said, well, let me tell ya, I found one found one, this little company, a little British company called native, they have a little product called MEO and it's great.
Speaker 0 05:46 It's, it's based on the kind of principles that I know you guys appreciate. It comes in like 20 different flavors. You can mix it in with water and it makes it taste amazing. Does it make you go to sleep instantly though? That's the question. So different MEO Oh yeah. So, um, we started to explore this. We, we started to take a look. We got to know, uh, they mentioned, Oh, by the way, it was recently acquired by Ooyala. And we have no idea. I have no idea what the future of this is. Are they even keeping it? Are they killing it? Are the team going to stick around? I got no idea. But man, and there was like a glimmer in his eyes and he was like that thing. So what did we do? We reached out to you guys. We were like, Yolo, what's up with this? We're interested. And actually you were one of the very first people we met. We came out to New York office. You were out. So what was happening with you with native, with this platform when we met at that time, roughly a two and a half to three years ago because a lot of people, you say you are Yala and you think like, Oh, CDN, you know, place to send videos so that I can put them on my website and video. Online video platform.
Speaker 1 06:51 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that's something we've been working on for the past three years. What do you think of when you hear her yell? Um, everyone out there <inaudible> how you pronounce it with a British accent. You know, people who work for us, you know, we've got you all. Uh, we've got, we've got a variety of things, but Ooyala, there you go. Um, so yeah, I mean at that time obviously we'd been quite recently acquired. Um, and I think with yellow who had been a customer of natives before, uh, then we, um, had been working closely with them and what they'd seen in the native mirror product is something that would really help them reach upstream from, you know, that OVP client base. Um, and you know, almost all of their OVP clients were good candidates for needing something to help manage the flow of content to their OVP.
Speaker 1 07:40 Um, so from a lot of points of view, it made sense. I think that at that time, having been recently acquired, we were still going through those growing pains of merging two companies working out how you actually work together. Um, as kind of the workflow orchestration piece, the type of customers and the type of conversations we have were very different to what, uh, you know, yellow we're having with their kind of OVP customers. I'm guessing it got into a few more details. Yeah. I mean we fundamentally, you know, if you were buying MEO at the time, especially a good few years ago, chances are you're in the middle of a large business change program very different to, you know, the kind of customers who might decide they need an OVP platform. Not always there was overlap, but
Speaker 0 08:25 Kind of more within that realm of damn like that kind of an approach like very enterprise software platform change management. Like we've basically got to get the CEO to agree to this if it's going to happen kind of thing.
Speaker 1 08:39 There was some, there was definitely some of that. I mean, I'd say probably at native that was more than half of our customers. Um, not necessarily what we wanted to continue driving towards. Especially as soon as you use the word enterprise, some people get scared.
Speaker 0 08:52 Well, you had automotive customers, you had brands, there were media customers, but not exclusively.
Speaker 1 08:59 Uh, no exclusively at all. No, I mean, and you know, there were some, some outliers like insurance companies and things like that. I mean, the key thing with this kind of media workflow orchestration is media isn't just for the media industry. You know, loads of companies out there have got loads of videos, images, huge back catalogs. Anyone might want to manage their media in a, in a more,
Speaker 2 09:18 And they may not have a production facility. It might, you know, I think a lot of us today in the, in, in this industry, we think of, you know, when we think of a media asset management platform or a dam or a Pam or whatever, we always think like, Oh, you like all these production needs. We, you know, sending things here and sending things over to this team and sending them the audio post and then bringing them all back and conforming them and then doing an edit. And, you know, we're not necessarily in that order, but, uh, you know, there are these, these, these great organizations out there that really just have all this media and they need to keep it somewhere where they can find it later. And that's, that's, and that's it. I mean, that's pretty much, you know, finding it. It's funny how,
Speaker 0 09:57 You know, we, we got to started building sands and storage for production and postproduction and I remember there being kind of almost like a critical mass moment when when it became affordable for even relatively small work groups to have a hundred, couple hundred terabytes. I feel like the paradigm of organizing things in a file system hierarchy just sort of collapsed. Right? It was just too linear, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 1 10:26 It's interesting you say that. Yes. And I think, um, certainly outside of the media industry, um, it's used for less. You'd be surprised how many media companies still want to, even when the using a completely different system and storing stuff on object storage, they're like, but how do I, how do I get browse down a level? How do I go and see the next level down? Um,
Speaker 0 10:46 It's a paradigm shift and that we haven't as an industry fully crossed.
Speaker 1 10:51 Well, and to be honest, a lot of the systems you see nowadays or actually actively modeling things in that way just to keep the consumers happy. And that is actually leads me to one of the biggest differences I noticed shifting industry in the media industry. Everyone you work with is so much more attached to their way of doing things and how they do it. You know, in a, you know, when I was in in the investment banking role, yeah we used systems and sometimes we worked around things that were a bit, you know, rubbish and those systems and that was just how it was. That's not acceptable with media clients. If something's not right they want you to fix it until it is absolutely perfect. And we find that to be the case as well.
Speaker 0 11:29 Perfect. As you said, according to kind of their, their proclivities, their way of doing things that what they're used to, their expectations. So this is a very interesting point. You having been in those multiple industries are in a good position to maybe flesh this out a little bit. What is it about the media space that leads to this? Is it because it's media and people just tend to be a little more passionate cause it's not some cold, boring system. It like leads to some cool creative thing that maybe they have more attachment to. Is that it?
Speaker 1 12:01 Yeah. I mean I've thought about this quite a lot because it immediately struck me and I think it's two things. It is, it is one, the type of people who work in this industry, not always, but tend to be people who have a more creative background, are used to being, as you say, more passionate about their work. That's one of the things. The other thing is what you're working on. You care about it. Did I care about, you know, the indices we were producing at the bank? No, I really didn't. Whereas you know, you get so emotionally attached to a creative piece of work, particularly when you know it's going to be put out there in front of an audience. Um, that everything has that much more importance to you, I think.
Speaker 0 12:38 Absolutely. It's an interesting, so I also find that creative types tend to be a little bit more of a perfectionist, a little bit more type a. Absolutely. Yeah. Well and again, when, when you're in a creative industry and aesthetic as a notion is baked into the output in such a direct way, right? I mean think about how many point of sale systems or CRMs or whatever have just awful user interfaces. I mean there's, I've still, I was at a guitar center the other day prepping for the workflow show and they, I had a guitar center was the first job I worked at out of college. This was in the summer of 2000 I took a look, I told the guy working in the section that I used to work in, Oh you know, he used to work here first job out of college and I, I took a look at the point of sale system they were using and guess what?
Speaker 0 13:29 It was the same one. It was the exact same one, dare I say, probably the same version of the software. And I asked him about it. I said, Oh, I can't believe you guys are still using the thing that's like the green text on the black screen that looks like it was written in 82 and probably was. And I was like, how do you like that? And I was asking this guy who was probably like 22 grew up in the era of beautiful user interfaces and it was interesting. He said, well it works. I can do what I need to do in it. And I was like, God, if I like told someone this is your UI to editing, it's going to work really well but it's going to look like this. They'd be like, no way. Because that is authentic that they're attached to is not there. So my question for you is, do you think this is a good thing in the entertainment industry and the technology behind it, a thing we have to grow beyond or is there almost a synthesis that we need to look at and and maybe have these things meet in the middle somewhere?
Speaker 1 14:29 I think unfortunately it's quite a damaging thing for the industry because what it does is it slows down a lot of company's ability to be agile, to really take advantage of new technology. Particularly now, you know, technological advances are coming quicker, closer together, there's going to be more change, not less. I expect. Um,
Speaker 0 14:52 Yeah, I think it's a, it's unfortunately it's a dangerous tendency. Well, and it's interesting because this is within the era where many major media companies are consolidating, merging, shifting to try to adapt to try to stay agile. They know that owning good content is important, but you would think that that building flex, no pun intended, flexible. It's just going to have to kind of be an ongoing pun for this episode. I think. Um, we haven't introduced what, why that would be upon yet. Well, we'll get to that. Okay. Maybe we'll do some creative editing here now. So they need to be flexible technologically. Even just to keep up with, Oh, a new version of a watch that uses a new codec because watches play video now or whatever the heck. Right. And like they also need to be technologically adaptable, not just the content. And you know, tell me if you've noticed this again with an outside perspective.
Speaker 0 15:49 I feel like in the media world there have been in continued to be links between the true business leaders in those organizations, which, which are often very creative positions. You think of major figures at major broadcasters who still kind of get executive producer credit in some of their major things because they actually do make some creative decisions about we're going to do this story, we're not going to do that story, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. So the business leaders I think are very connected with the content itself in many ways. And they're connected with their marketing groups that look at things like Nielsen ratings or figure out which, which audience we're going to go after with a certain type of programming. And I think those executives, I've also had some connections to the technology groups within their organizations and the, and the technology groups kind of have connections to the underlying creatives because they serve them essentially.
Speaker 0 16:48 But the kind of the real business side of the shop and the marketing folks that drive a lot of decisions in the creative industry, I don't feel they're really linked up with the technology groups at all. Like I just feel like we go, I saw you a couple months ago, uh, it was a Mesa event at the Microsoft center in New York and a lot of the focus was on taking on more advanced analytics approaches. May be this grand vision idea of marrying some of your audience data with actual content, data, ad data, and through big data and analytics, we can learn some interesting things here. I mean, there's the, you know, these days who wants big data and analytics. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to figure out who's watching their stuff is nuts, is like, we're actually probably 10 to 15 years behind most other industries in marrying these things up and deriving value out of that marriage of data.
Speaker 0 17:46 And again, I feel like a lot of the technology leaders, engineers, they know necessarily how to make business arguments about the utility of putting in say a certain type of platform that adheres to a certain engineering approach or even underlying philosophy in how it was created and actually telling the business leaders in the organization, you know, we need to put this in for the following business reasons. It will help us be agile. Look at how we had to onboard X, Y, and Z in the last three months. It took this amount of time, this much, you know, money was spent on the man hours to do that. It could have been one 10th of that if we had a platform that did ABC. But I don't necessarily know that those articulations are happening a lot. What do you see?
Speaker 1 18:33 Um, I mean from, from our point of view on the vendor side, that's the onus is on us to, you know, make sure we're talking to the business leaders in language they understand. I do think, and I actually think this is true across most industries, there is still um, an onus on the technology vendors to hide the fact they're doing technology from the people they're trying to sell to. Cause a lot of the time that's not what they want to hear. Unless you're selling to a company who's really, really quite technology savvy, then you want to hide the fact that you're doing technology and say this is what you're going to get. Um, and the problem is always in meeting those expectations and not miss selling by dint of trying to hide the fact there is an underlying platform here it is doing technological stuff. At some point someone's going to have to understand how that works.
Speaker 0 19:21 You would think that the media industry with media as a very concept inherently being a technological thing like cave painting is, is technology, right?
Speaker 1 19:32 Let's redefine not so they're very comfortable with media, with codex, you know, with bit rates, things like that. I'm talking software, it's software really that wouldn't work and I'm going to split software up from it as well.
Speaker 0 19:44 So it's really even just soft. There are hardware guys and ladies and you know, they, they see things in terms of signal flow and boxes connected together and networks. But the boxes are still sort of black boxes or they want them to be. And now
Speaker 1 20:01 Slightly analogous to telecoms. Cause obviously when I was working in telecoms, we were in that time where we were shifting to IP, you know, from analog telephone lines. And as you say, we're just about 10 to 15 years later and the media industry with this kind of shift,
Speaker 0 20:16 You've seen changes in the, you've been with on uh, well originally native and then when we <inaudible>, Ooyala, <inaudible> British pronounce, just keep saying we yell at them. So, um, you've been there for about five years. Um, have you seen a change working with clientele? Uh, because you work very heavily with clientele in your professional services role, you're running projects, you're getting things implemented, building workflows. And we'll get more to the specifics on me on this. Oh, I keep saying me on flex in a second. But have you seen change interfacing with the clientele and the types of folks that you guys are involved with in that five year period?
Speaker 1 21:00 Uh, yeah. I mean originally it native, we were definitely more involved with customers who, who were big enough or advanced enough to have a technology team. And we were talking to the technology team. Now, um, we are quite often talking to what you'd call the business. You know, people who are curating content, making content, um, who may be, are a little bit younger, maybe are more used to technology is something that's just around and it's omnipresent and hence they're not, they're less scared of having that conversation with someone who they know is a technical company. So yeah, that shift is definitely happening I would say.
Speaker 0 21:38 Yeah, I think I've noticed that. What about you, Jason? Have you seen changes even in our own clientele over that period?
Speaker 2 21:43 Oh, definitely. And I mean, uh, also the types of personalities and, and, and roles that we and our roles have to interact with. And you know, or, or w w you know, who we need to interact with to get our work done. It's not just, you know, this video team over here anymore. It's like, you know, in, in many, in many of the environments that we work with, you know, we have to talk to their it or I S departments as well just to get, you know, into the right systems and into the right switches and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes they have to do, you know what we would normally do it, you know, it's, yeah, it is, it's like a complete mixing of, of all these different, you know, uh, these different backgrounds and professions, which is really interesting.
Speaker 0 22:23 So let's get in to flex a little more, but we'll start from the perspective of you were in these other industries doing technology work, coding, you decided to get away from that just wasn't lighting a fire under you kind of thing. Were you looking for the media industry specifically?
Speaker 1 22:41 No, I was looking for a, I realized after about a decade what I really enjoyed with when I was working for a company that had a technology product I could get behind. I didn't want to be, you know, kind of fully services oriented. I wanted to have a product that we were developing, selling something I could really infuse about. So that's what I was looking for and it just so happened I found that in the media.
Speaker 0 23:03 Can I ask how you came across native?
Speaker 1 23:08 I think I really just think they were advertising to be honest. I wasn't, because I wasn't even particularly aware of lots of media companies at that time. I think I just was applying across a broad range of different industries and roles. I was looking in financial tech, marketing tech.
Speaker 0 23:23 You were like, Oh, I could commute there. That's cool. Stop, whatever. So you sat down, you met them. What did you see?
Speaker 1 23:36 So at the time natives was relatively small. We probably had about 25 people in London. Um, I saw
Speaker 0 23:44 That's like three times the size
Speaker 1 23:46 Of most men vendors. I'll just throw out. Uh, yeah, I saw a company that was at that stage where they were starting to scale up. And that was very exciting to me because I could see they had on their hands a product that, although, you know, not a huge amount of customers and primarily in Europe, we'd really started to go places. They were starting to have conversations they'd never dreamed of with people in the States and then, you know, Asia and things like that. And the fact they were looking for the role that I originally went in for, which was, was head of delivery with just part of their, Oh, we need to scale and do it quickly. Kind of,
Speaker 0 24:21 So you show up and I'm guessing it's an interview and they're finding out about your background, but I'm guessing you're like, what do you guys do? How did they describe what at the time called Mio was and when they kind of took you through it? Do you remember how you kind of felt about it or what you saw there?
Speaker 1 24:43 Yeah, I remember the CEO, uh, John Folland, um, took me through it. And one of the things he always envisioned the envisage, I can't even say the word now envisioned for me. Uh, and we still use this in our sales pitch for flex today is the fact that in the media industry you have a lot of silos, probably more than other industries by nature of the very specific niche tasks you need to do when you're creating content. And in each of those silos you've got some great best of breed products for, you know, a transcoder or audio editing or something like that. But what you don't have and you didn't have at the time certainly was something that lets you easily connect those products together, maintain data, really know where your content was at any given time. So the original Mayo kind of tagline was always take control of your content and that's really what he was pushing. Um, and I think that really just kind of spoke to me because it felt like our product was part of empowering people in the industry to do what they love to do. But, but better. So
Speaker 0 25:47 Now that platform, which is now called flex, we're going to refer to very generically, we'll get more into the details in a moment, but we'll call it middleware for, for now. And I remember in the early nineties when I was just a little knee high, geeky Nick and I, uh, was getting into computers and networking and like I remember the buzz in the it world and like 95 being middleware. Um, but it spoke to a set of needs that I think were arising in other industries at around that time as supply chains were becoming much more global and technology infused. And I think for kind of the same set of reasons, but maybe on a larger level, a lot of other industries said we need ways of intelligently and scalably hooking, maybe not a desktop application to another desktop application. Although, you know, our world has that and much more now.
Speaker 0 26:42 But they said, Oh, I've got this platform, I've got a customer CRM and a script or this things. I mean the way I love to describe like imagine, imagine if you had to ship a package these days, like through FedEx, right? And you know, you go to the website and you enter the details and print out a label and then you know that they show up, they scan things, they take it away, it gets scanned a number, et cetera, et cetera. It goes across the planet, you know, then you know you can log in somewhere and see that someone received your package, look at their actual digitized signature. And I love telling people, imagine if that whole workflow behind the scenes to get your package from Baltimore, Maryland to London or whatever was like a whole bunch of people behind the scenes copying things between folders.
Speaker 0 27:32 Like it's like that would never ever happen. But that actually still happens in the media room. Like sometimes for that scale of problem. Oh great. We have 400 new deliverables for this one show that we just syndicated out. And then we got to hire 400 new people and each one of them as their, you know, workstations. So we got to buy 400 new workstations and it's a little, it's a little nutty. So you came into this environment, you were there for a couple of years working on MEO with this relatively small British company called native. And then this bigger fish came swimming up called Ooyala. But even beyond that, that was sort of like an even bigger whale behind them. So tell us a little bit about Ooyala, their ownership and how that kind of, you know, just what you saw as they kind of started talking with native and eventually purchased native and brought them into the fold.
Speaker 1 28:35 So we mainly dealt directly with yellow, although obviously yellow owned by Telstra, the very large Australian telco. But, um, Telstra's, um, attitude has always been <inaudible> our kind of media technology arm. They understand that world, you know, they kind of, you know, the acquisition was done through yellow, yellow, we're kind of in charge of that. So that part of the business.
Speaker 0 29:01 So it was a somewhat independent move on <inaudible> part in some way.
Speaker 1 29:06 Yeah, I mean the Telstra members of the board, and obviously everything has to be approved by them, but yeah, it was definitely driven by yellow. Yep.
Speaker 0 29:15 So they come in and they start talking with the company. Did this manifest in kind of day to day changes at the office or, or was it kind of just more of the same you just mentioned they were already a client? If I had already been a relationship,
Speaker 1 29:29 There's already a relationship there and it was a lot of the same people who we'd been working with who were kind of, you know, suggested this might be a good kind of acquisition to make. And, um, we're still continuing with our day to day contacts. Um, Yala didn't have a presence in London, so there was, by nature, it was definitely a tricky merger. Um, because none of us were in the same place. We have to send people between locations a lot. No one was, you know, some of them permanently or semi-permanently moved to London to try and make it easier. Um, but yeah, I mean I'm not gonna lie, it was a transition that was difficult to, uh, to meet, uh, efficient. Definitely.
Speaker 0 30:06 Sure. But, but that happened. That was again, like over three years ago now. You've been kind of fully integrated into the Ooyala fold and something I've noticed as of late, you know. Wow. Maybe the public, I think still associates who Yala with being an online video platform. Um, my interfacing with the company including you and your colleagues, um, indicates that flex, it's even in the, in the center of their diagram, flex has really become the key story for Ooyala and those kind of legacy businesses, if you want to call them that, they almost now have a larger story they fit into as being part of a, an emerging flex platform. Yep.
Speaker 1 30:48 Absolutely. And I think this has always been the vision. Um, and actually with NAB, so April this year we relaunched, um, and we've mentioned a few times the kind of the media supply chain, which was always part of how we got people to understand what our platform did. Now we still represent that as a circle. And that's really what we want to have our customers focus on. The fact that your flex media platform is at the center of their operations. And one of the reasons that it's good to think of the supply chain as a circle is because what we want to encourage people to do and what no one's really doing in, in my mind caught principally is taking all the data you gathered during your production process, during your distribution process and feeding that back into your process for next time. So not just, yeah, you know, rating say that people are liking Scandinavian dramas.
Speaker 1 31:40 Let's make more of them, but barely doing that. I mean, that's still could be more advanced, but things like, well actually we, we put in this new review tool, this new bit of process, which maybe got the content out quicker. Maybe it just went through a more rigorous review. What effect did that have? Is it worth us changing our processes using different tooling? You know, um, integrating that in and feeding, feeding those analytics through to really kind of think of it as a supply chain. We call it a supply chain. It's not being treated like make
Speaker 2 32:14 A really, uh, you know, just, uh, just sort of bring that to the surface a little bit because I think, uh, for me, thinking of thinking of the media supply chain really started with learning more about flex. Right? Um, so it, it really was kind of like a, Hey, this media supply. And I remember I had to think to myself, that's a really good way to, to think of this. Um, having, having worked for a company that, uh, does a lot of, uh, videos with, um, uh, videos about process, uh, and, and being that one of their clients was, uh, was a, was a large distributor of, of goods. Um, I worked on videos that talked about the, about the, the supply, like the product supply chain a lot. And, um, when I w you know, sort of put those two together, when you put those two together for me, I should say it really, I was just like, this is a really great way to think of this. You know, it's not really speaks to what to, to your analogy from before about like, you know, do we, do we just get, you know, we got 400 new deliverables, what do we do? Well let's, let's, let's hire 40 more trucks and you know, they have to be of this size and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just, you know, it really, when you think of it as a, as a supply chain,
Speaker 1 33:28 It's the point of the point of thinking of everything being an interconnected supply chain is to identify areas that could be more efficiency. So if you take it back to my new money, by the way, people make things quicker as well, right? If you go back to manufacturing and where this actually came from, what is, what is wasted money? It's inventory sitting around not being used. So what's that in media? It's all the rushes you didn't need to take. It's all the equipment that's not being used constantly. It's people who quite frankly aren't being utilized. Right? Um, and very few media companies are actually thinking about that because it's almost like content creation is sacrosanct. So you joined this company, you hadn't had a ton of experience in the media world, specifically, you came in U S you happened to join an organization that had a very sophisticated middleware platform that truly allowed the building of supply chain type ways of handling media technology.
Speaker 1 34:28 And then you started to realize there were other people in the industry also selling things to supposedly address these types of issues. Those platforms are maybe various, there's several different types. Tell me what you started to learn about what else was out there and how people were solving these problems and maybe we can use that as a springboard to start to talk about flex more specifically. Yeah, so I mean with this type of platform, it quite often comes down to a build versus buy. So a lot of what people were using with something they built themselves. So we can actually, you know, we've got a software development team. All it needs to do is basically be a glorified database. That was quite a lot of that kind of thinking, which from a data point of view is, is the right thing to do, single source of truth, but ignores the, the complexity, they're just shifting your files around and things like that.
Speaker 1 35:22 So that was quite a lot of that we were interacting with. And then on the other side there were definitely, um, I'll say competitors, although it's, it was a long time before anyone kind of emerged who was doing exactly what we were doing. There were people who did work flow and you know, there were people who did some interoperability, but there wasn't another platform that joined it all together and tried to provide a kind of asset management UI on top of that as well. Um, you know, they're getting there now. Uh, definitely. But what that meant was we had competitors in different, uh, verticals essentially, depending on if a customer thought what they were looking for was a mom or thought what they were looking for. Wards just workflow. Right. Um, so then, you know, we'd always be kind of saying, well, do you want just a ma'am or do you actually, can you see the benefit of joining this together? Maintaining your data, being able to enrich your data throughout the process. You know, and so to be honest, some, some people didn't get it immediately because it was relatively new for them, but the ones who did get it were the ones who, you know, jumped on board. You know, we had some really good early partnerships with people like ITV and things like that who just really helped us develop the platform as well as help them develop their processes.
Speaker 2 36:34 <inaudible> that supply chain also helps you become more efficient as well. Yeah, it's, yeah.
Speaker 0 36:40 So you, you came into an industry that had media asset management platforms. They, they did some basic database functionality. They did maybe a little bit of workflow automation stuff, maybe even less, if any actual integration features. Some maybe had some like business process management, little engines in there to kick things. Usually just to kick things off when certain things happen. The things could be anything that got that happened, they were sort of left in your own hands. A lot of them.
Speaker 2 37:11 Those are all what Nick just mentioned. Things like orchestration, you know, the management of assets that the, you know, the database aspect of it, the metadata, the searchability, uh, the business. Uh, um, I'm sorry. Processes, process management. Yeah. Um, those are, what I find is that those are all things that many of these platforms have. One or two of maybe three. Uh, you know, and, and um, in my experience, you know, just just over the last few days, flex is really the one that's really kind of taking the, the approach of like, we want to do all of this for you. We won't say, no, you're not, you don't want to do this part of it so you're not a good fit for us. We can integrate with whatever your thing is that does that. But yeah,
Speaker 1 37:58 We didn't, the other thing we didn't want to say, despite having, you know, functions across the supply chain, we didn't want to say, well, you have to use us. You know, if you had a favorite ma'am or you know, a favorite other part of the supply chain, our stance was always, well you can still use flex for orchestration and to bring everything together. And you know, the whole design of flex is that it's composable and configurable just so you can easily integrate with other systems.
Speaker 2 38:22 And that's the bit, that's, that's the other big thing that, that's kind of the, it is the other big thing that, you know, we mentioned business process and database metadata, orchestration, all that kind of stuff. The integration, I mean I think as is a level on top
Speaker 0 38:36 Of the orchestration because you have to be able to talk to these platforms and be able to interpret what they're saying and be able to speak their language, work with their API. You know, this, this is all stuff that um, some platforms do better than others. So let me, let me put it this way too. Well, and this is what I, I think I myself struggle with year after year. You need asset management. There are ma'ams but this other platform here does some of that. You need workflow, there are workflow platforms you can use to kick workflow, drive workflow, even do a little bit of systems integration and we're talking workflow automation there, string these few tasks together. You know, I know the answer, I want to know how you guys frankly articulate it. There is a a category difference between platforms that have some of those capabilities like we've been talking about and the class of platform that flex as it's now known, um, is, and I could throw out jargon as I did earlier, like middleware.
Speaker 0 39:46 I could use a term like enterprise service bus, um, because that was a class of software platform technology used for automation and integration work in, in the world at large outside of media. And there is that kind of ability to use that nomenclature for a platform like flex. But without maybe the jargon. How do you describe architecturally the difference between flex and why it's more valuable to these types of things, especially in a highly scalable and highly complex kind of way. Then stitching together a ma'am or Pam with a little workflow engine or with a couple of bash scripts or
Speaker 1 40:28 A Ruby app or this or that or a hundred things. Yeah. So absolutely. I mean, one of the things we realized early on is that the type of use case we wanted to go for, so orchestrating end to end supply chains required us to be scalable and flexible. That's why flexible as a pun by the way, because when we rebranded it's flex. Suddenly we couldn't describe ourselves as flexible anymore without everyone going. Ah, yeah, exactly. Um,
Speaker 0 40:54 I would be the person who just went into every meeting and like gave people a really intense look and like got up in front of the board and was like, guys, this platform is so flexible and then just wait a minute. You would be that guy. I know you would. I actually am that guy.
Speaker 1 41:17 Um, anyway, so yeah, we realized that we needed to make sure the platform was that scalable. And so a long time ago we, we took Mia as it was and began to change the architecture, the underlying architecture to um, well a microservices based. So for those who are unfamiliar, microservices is all about taking individual functional components of the platform and wrapping them in their own service such that you can scale parts of the system individually. So if we are talking to a customer who has a lot of users of the UI who are going to search a lot more than normal, we can scale up the search capabilities without telling them they have to have five times the hardware to run it on because we've architected such that individual pots can grow or shrink as needed. So that's been a really big bonus and it's a large part of why we market ourselves as a platform, not just a product, because we are providing the base for our customers to build their use cases on top of, or for us to, you know, or a partner to build on top of.
Speaker 1 42:20 But the whole design of the system is that we provide a very scalable, um, well I'm gonna use the word platform again, but that you can then build a UI or another system or you know, whatever you particularly need on top of, or you can make use of apps that we provide if they're fit for purpose for you. And the key thing is we don't limit what you can do with our platform. So you can configure as many workflows as you want. You can configure as many metadata definition schemers as you want. That's not something we want to limit because the whole point is we want our customers to think how, what else can I do with flex? You know, we don't, we don't want them to think, Oh, I, I've done what I can do with this. I need to buy something else.
Speaker 2 43:02 It's, it's very much about, uh, you know, building those blocks and seeing how you can string them together. I mean, you know, working with flex over the last few days, um, it, it really is like you're, you're sort of, you have to build the bricks first and then you put them in a formation, you know, you, you build the actions, you, you make a workflow with the actions. Um,
Speaker 1 43:22 I'm going to take slight exception to the bricks metaphor because the difference being that the bricks wants built should be reusable.
Speaker 0 43:30 Absolutely. Yes. And absolutely. You know, you guys use, again, it's a very common technology at large in the world in it called containerization, specifically Docker, which is a way for our listeners who are not familiar with software containers. Would it be fair to say they're almost like a VM without the actual operating system? It's really just the core pieces of code that are needed for that. As you said, that microservice, that little specific functionality to function and whatever kind of supporting software that they need. And then those could be launched on hardware that could be launched on VMs that could be in the cloud, that could be on local servers, but these containerized microservices and the fact that you actually have a platform that utilizes them is another kind of characteristic of its scalability that we don't often see in this class of media management platform.
Speaker 1 44:23 Absolutely. Yeah. And to be fair, that's why this has kind of come about in recent years as you know, corresponding technologies like containerization become that much more hardened, that much more prevalent, easy to use. Um, you know, also things like, uh, generic messaging apps like rabbit MQ, things like that. The emergence of that has just made this type of architecture that much easier to develop. Um, so yeah, it's, it's been really
Speaker 0 44:48 Great and ideal for anyone who either has an on premise solution, but they want to be able to flexibly, um, you know, put, let's say scale different aspects of the system. I'm ingesting thousands and thousands of files and there are assets we need to do check sums on them. We're running hashes and dah, dah, you know, I need certain amount of horsepower for just those little pieces of it. And then there's an analytics component and then there's just, you know, what we need for the database, functionality, et cetera, et cetera. And you can kind of say, well, we need to take just these pieces of that architecture and scale them out and put them on the right thing. But it also allows you to say, I want just these certain pieces of what really is still a fully unified platform in the cloud because it makes sense for those aspects of the system to be there. But I still need little pieces of it that are appropriate for on premises that actually touch on premises systems. Right.
Speaker 1 45:45 Absolutely. And um, again, everything being in its own container does exactly that. You can deploy it anywhere, any part of it. I mean, an example is it's not just based on function, but based on timing. So we've got several customers who do, you know, as part of their project, they're doing a large migration, maybe out of archive or something. Um, one of them is doing it right now in Australia and we have massively scaled up the subtitle structuring component because they want to pull out subtitles of everything, you know, the 10, 15 petabytes in their archive as we move them to a cloud based system. As soon as that's finished, we're going to scale that subtitle extraction component right down again cause they just don't need that for that BAU activities.
Speaker 0 46:23 Were they thinking that there might be like useful searchable meta-data in those subtitles? We'll look at that. It didn't even need machine learning. They could just use the subtitles, which makes a lot of sense. Um, so another thing that, why would anyone want to industry machine learning ML thing? Like what, why would you want that? I think that's another area that our industry is maybe a little more resistant of than others for the kinds of passions that you described earlier, people are very passionate about the creative aspects of these projects, even if they're not in a terribly creative role. I think they're in that realm and they get in that mindset and I think some people realize there's very useful aspects of machine learning, but it's threatening to others as well because it instantly, I noticed it instantly goes to, Oh, you're never going to have a robot edit a video, which is not true because it's already happening in some contexts, but it's the fact that it quickly even goes to that, I think reveals what some of people's insecurities about the technology actually are. They see it as maybe coming for their job. I'm into the media industry because it is so inherently human and gosh, I just don't want it to be taken over by something mindless that sucks the soul out of it. Right. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've been quite surprised with the way, uh, machine learning vendors have interacted with the media industry because in a lot of other industries it wasn't, Hey, you can get way more data off you go, which is crazy, especially in <inaudible>.
Speaker 0 47:55 It's been, look, you know, here is someone using your uh, your front end to find content. And look, I've suggested to them that actually did they know that they really like a historical dramas with sweeping landscape shots. I've done this using a new technology. They don't need to care what it is, but what you re again, selling them on the benefits, not scaring them with the fact that, well what new technology, and I agree with you completely and I've even called some of our very friendly vendor partners to task a little bit on this, this message that we can throw robots at it and ship you way more metadata. Ooh, like people are like guys, we're still trying to like get people to use those six metadata fields we agreed on 12 months ago consistently. And I just feel like giving people more metadata isn't a solution.
Speaker 0 48:44 That's a problem. We ended up with six because we started with like 200 and realized nobody was going to use them. So we whittled it down to six and people still aren't using it. And so, you know, I've shifted to this new role at Chesapeake as a technologist. I'm not quite in the biz dev cycle as much and so one of the areas I've had some more time and energy to focus on is, is data analytics, data science, big data, machine learning, and, and you're diving into it. One of the things that I have found is, and you can, you can read all sorts of books. In fact, there's a really good one on this subject that's called the following, uh, telling stories with data, data storytelling. I actually know someone who I met through this industry, but they're not focused on this industry who has that as a job title.
Speaker 0 49:27 I'm a data storyteller and I was like, that's the coolest job title ever. I want that job title. And because it really spoke to me because giving people metadata, it's like, what does that do for me? What does that do for my business? You're going to charge me for something that I don't even know what its value is necessarily. I mean, sure, certain people can stake out certain use cases and say, Oh yeah, I can see how this thing that I'm running through manual transcript creation today, it would be 8 cents less per package. Let's do it right. If a machine can do it at 75% accuracy, we're there. But as you said, every other industry, like those aren't the types of stories that, that ML vendors are telling people. They're like, we can get you to make three times as much off of every one of your customers.
Speaker 0 50:15 We can identify their own passions and interests better than they themselves do. And use recommendation engines to keep them on your site for five times as long. And they can show the analytics and do AB testing and that, which, by the way, anyone who's like listening thinking like, why would I, you know, well, it generates more revenue for your company, which means you get to keep your job longer. So that's a good thing. I think that's a decent frame of reference these days. It's not like too many people I know feel like they have an infinitely secure job. Right. Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of media people who I think probably wish they were paid more. I think thinking thoughts about the utility of certain platforms to your business, making money, even if that isn't your full time job, it's not a bad set of values to bring to the table and demonstrate to your, your, your, your employer.
Speaker 0 51:10 Think about these things. I'm going to help you make money like that. For anyone listening who doesn't realize like that's how you get paid more is to help other people figure out how they're going to make more money. Let me say that that's how you get paid more. You figure out how to make other people money. Okay, so you come in, you're in this world now you have this middleware platform. It is we think very interesting, exciting, scalable, utilizes, you know, best practices, the right approaches in, in creating a truly interconnected data. Meinl all of these, you know, scalable cloud, hybrid, capable, global in reach kind of platform for media, supply chain and delivery and all this stuff. Things are changing. We have all this consolidation. We've been talking about the new technologies like machine learning. What do you, what have you noticed? I feel like the, the, the media industry has even had some shifts in just the last couple of years with all these mergers and acquisitions. I keep thinking that when a big say telco acquires a big media company, maybe that's an opportunity for people who do think a little bit more about building platforms to achieve efficiencies in supply chain operations. Maybe some of that thinking might infuse the media companies more. What have you been seeing out there and how do you think it relates to where we're at in media now? And maybe even just what the next few years are going to look like?
Speaker 1 52:34 Yeah, so I mean we've, we've talked about technology and what's happening there and I think, you know, obviously in the media technology space there's always new things. You know, 3d didn't really go anywhere but for K eight K that's coming along. But what I think I haven't seen anyone addressing yet and, and this is reflected in kind of almost to tears of customer we have now is with the prevalence of user generated content, a YouTube, you know, Twitch, things like that. I think people's expectations of the quality of content is actually going down, which is kind of a dichotomy when you look at where technology is going. Um, and this is reflected in that we have, you know, old school production companies, broadcasters who are all about all four K eight K bigger bandwidth. Um, but then we have this new tier of new customers, companies that didn't exist five years ago who are doing well and don't have to worry about those kinds of production processes. And um, you know, basically that, you know, it affects everything you do. It's file size, it's cost of moving that around. It's a, you know, all the edit suites to get that content right. And this is for an audience that is, you know, it's still out there. People definitely love a well crafted piece of content. But you know, 20 years time, is that still going to be true? Will people even even care if it's 4k or if it's just, you know, good old 10 80 P or divas.
Speaker 0 54:00 I mean if anyone from HBO is listening to this, like I love your shows so please keep making them home. Please, please everyone. Please keep making high quality media. Watch it if it wasn't in Fort Casey. Oh I mean yeah listen, I think the production value is important but yes, you've, you've homed in on something and there is production value in a well-written script or good acting. I mean these, these are the things maybe more than the digital dragons that wouldn't much strumming today doesn't have a script. So one might say that the long tail, which I think was bandied about again in the mid nineties I think it was a, what's his name, Anderson, who started wired magazine or what's his name? Anyway, he was one of the big hypers Oh there's going to be this long tail. The internet is going to allow all of these like micro content communities to arise.
Speaker 0 54:53 There will be people, you know, micro broadcasting, very niche audience oriented media is going to be out there and like for maybe 15 years, 10 years, maybe 10 years, you know, people were like, yeah, no, it's only really still just the big guys making money. And really that's all that's important. And in like the last maybe five to eight years, you know you've got YouTube generation in full swing, you got, you know, everyone's playing their smartphone, they're poking on every two seconds. I mean we have screens everywhere now. It's like the long tail actually arrived and it, it requires a very different type of technology, investment, infrastructure, philosophy. It's all about adaptability scale. Not necessarily it K files flowing through every minute, but it might be a million HD files that are user community oriented or, or created even.
Speaker 1 55:50 And this is the thing, there's all this kind of five G or we need to upgrade all the broadband infrastructure, which absolutely I'm definitely behind that. But equally that they work on the assumption because everyone's gonna want four K content on their phone or you know, we're actually one urban areas versus rural areas that the long tail is going to get longer because all of that infrastructure is taking longer and longer to upgrade. Um, and you know, 5g won't be enough very soon as soon as it's rolled out probably and so on. So because of that, the fact that the underlying infrastructure is not keeping up with moms
Speaker 0 56:24 And the long tail is going to get longer and longer. It's interesting. And, and I like to think that, um, advertising technologies will also be something that changes a lot in video media over the next few years. Um, we haven't seen it do great things on the web. Um, there's a term called programmatic advertising. Some people out there might be familiar with it and it involves, well, I'll give an example. Programmatic advertising is when you're on a webpage and there's a banner ad showing you the things on a totally different website that you just had in your shopping cart, but decided not to purchase. Like that wasn't a coincidence that out of the four bajillion things on Amazon, the four you were just looking at most recently are in a banner ad that was programmatically created based on metadata flowing between systems thanks to middleware, right and yet when people watch TV on their cable box outside of very small test audiences pretty much and you get regional ad buys, that's always been a thing and even local ad buys that are managed by you know, broadcast traffic systems and things like that.
Speaker 0 57:29 But you know there are many blocks of ads where most people watching the show are seeing the same ad and I think like you ask a web advertiser if that would be useful to you and well you might get some large brands doing big buys like that. The reality is web advertising has swung very much towards the programmatic. It's kind of taken for granted and yet television is still a little on the brink. If you're watching video, even online, you're probably not seeing ads that were designed for you, the viewer. Emily. It's very interesting because I was literally just thinking about that the other day with the swing from, you know, your kind of standard satellite onto IP based television. You can absolutely do programmatic advertising off your, what will the top box and it's now just coming in via your router. Well, the other thing that's happening in the United States, and it's not a, it's not a mandatory standard, but our over the air digital broadcast standard, you guys have DTV over in Britain.
Speaker 0 58:28 We have a standard called ATFC. Um, and unfortunately when it launched, it was already several years kind of behind the, the, the state of technology just because of all the bureaucratic hold up and us moving to HD and digital transmission and retiring the analog trans, uh, transmissions. But, um, the new ATSE 3.0 standard, which will be voluntary, but I got kind of tells me the electronics manufacturers will probably build it into the boxes to try to get people to buy new boxes. Um, allows internet hookup and will allow for things like programmatic advertising even for content that is over the air. Um, so some interesting things happen and sort of interrupt the stream or maybe not even interrupted. It would just be like, here's your four minute long commercial break for this program. And it just happens to be ads that we think that you're going to, you know.
Speaker 0 59:19 Yeah. Well not in this, just happen to think like we know very specifically we can charge more money for this ad because it meant something more to you. Right. And another little reminder for our audience, I mean some of our listeners are probably in the government or this or that, but many of our listeners and our clients here at Chesapeake are in ad supported media, which means that the viewers are not the customers and the content is not the product. The viewers are the product and the customers are the advertisers and so selling ads for more dollars per you know, impression or whatever the CPMs in the advertising industry and you know thousand cost per thousand impressions to air your ad in front of an audience. Um, they can make those higher, they can get more money for those ad impressions if the ads are relevant to the people viewing them and the advertisers are willing to pay more like they are on programmatic advertising on the web.
Speaker 0 00:21 So we have a lot of interesting stuff coming. A platform like flex I see and saw instantly when I got to know you guys as being very central to building these types of possibilities that, I hate to say it, a man might be useful, a little workflow engine might be useful. A transcode engine might be useful at transcode engine that has some workflow. All of these things can be very useful, but it's not going to be the heart of the 21st century media supply chain technology infrastructure in the way that I think flex is. And so I really look forward to us continuing to work with you guys to see where the platform goes. And, um, you know, it's, it's great stuff. It's, it's in the three years that I've known of, of the technology now known as flex. Um, I've seen it grow tremendously.
Speaker 0 01:08 I mean, you know, the other thing I'll say and, um, really, I mean this genuinely, um, you know, going through some of the training materials, I was watching videos, um, this isn't, you know, the closed portal for partners like Chesapeake. And there were videos that were kind of some like mostly internal. We all a presentation, some of your colleagues, uh, from probably the, even the former, uh, native staff, you know, doing some presentations and such. And there were portions that they were talking about things and I said, Oh, he's definitely talking about a very specific set of conversations that Chesapeake systems had with them a couple years ago. And I heard them talking about the conversation retroactively. Like it was probably recorded, you know, a year or two later. And it very specifically kind of echoed back some of our feedback, very specific points. And I was like, Oh my God, they listened and they even knew what we were talking about and kind of could contextualize that.
Speaker 0 02:07 And that's I think really exciting to us. Well the thing that's exciting to me as someone who will probably, you know at some point have hands on is the documentation is fantastic. It's like you know, I, we liked docs, we liked documentation because it's like, Hey here's all this stuff you need to use our product. Here's some examples. Here's some Java docs, here's like a whole bunch of stuff. Like here it all is, have you ever thought about getting a water proof like thing for your iPad and like bringing it into the bath more and like, you know, pour a glass of wine or probably, you know, bubble to read bath documentation. Yeah. Work. Cool. Cause here's the thing, right? Cause once they stopped printing manuals, you can just couldn't take the manual into the bath anymore. And I, I do these things. That's true.
Speaker 0 02:54 I don't, do they make waterproof things for iPads? They must. They must. Absolutely. If anyone wants to send me one, I need to take them diving and stuff and take them on boats. Like I need one of these cause I'll totally read flex documentation all in a bubble bath. When's your birthday? December 21st. Okay. Darkest day of the year. Just teach him to be careful. Yeah. Do you know how many times a day I dropped my iPhone? That's not happening. Well thank you Emily. Emily Hobson helped people. Thank you so much for coming in today. I'm sure we'll have you back again. Really appreciate the level of articulation you bring to a lot of these issues. I think your role as kind of an educator in the industry is fantastic. Um, coupled with I think a, a personality of really wanting to help solve the problems you see to make people's lives better, more efficient.
Speaker 0 03:47 Uh, and, and I see that being delivered through the platform. So thank you for having that role in our industry, which needs more people who are able to do these things and um, and doing it with a sense of humor as well. I remember, uh, you had a great line at, at uh, one of the, one of the conferences I saw you at it. Someone had asked you a question, you remember the one I think when you were heckling me? But no, no, no, no, no. So someone else asked a question and they said it was some like, how, how do you feel about like the adoption of VMs, you know, in production. And you were like, well that's a bit like asking what your feelings about Linux are, isn't it quote of the day. So, so thank you for having that attitude, being educational, doing it in a fun and snarky fashion.
Speaker 0 04:31 We appreciate these things at Chesapeake. Absolutely. And we'll definitely have you back and I can't wait to see kind of where flux goes over the next couple of years. Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure and uh, yeah, I hope to be back with you soon. Excellent. Well thanks everyone for listening. We're really glad to be back. This will be a regular occurrence now. Absolutely. If you have any show ideas, uh, guest recommendations. Heck, if you want to be a guest on the program, you're more than welcome to reach out and you can reach out to me, which is just
[email protected]. I'm not going to give away your email address, Jason, because certain people will just email it to NEC. Just email me and once again, Emily, thank you and we'll talk soon. Thanks everybody for listening. Take care.
